The Chosen (Chap 13-end) due Sun, Oct 4 by 8pm
1. Quote one line/passage OR note one image from within Chap 13-18 that feels imp’t to the text, and write a paragraph explaining why. (Note page #.)
2. What has this book left you thinking about? Explain. End your post w/ a question.
3. Also, reply to at least one student's post.
(Make your post 2 paragraphs long, and skip a line between paragraphs.)
3. Also, reply to at least one student's post.
(Make your post 2 paragraphs long, and skip a line between paragraphs.)
"There is so much pain in the world. What does it mean to have to suffer so much if our lives are nothing more than the blink of an eye?" (page 217) I thought that this was a very important to the text, because although I do not think it affects the text too much here I think that later in the book it is a great thing to think about. When Reuven and Danny are ignoring each other because of Reb, It made me think back to this line, and realize that all the pain and suffering that Danny and Reuven were going through was foolish, the reason being there is enough suffering, and life passes by too quickly.
ReplyDeleteI think that the biggest thing that this book has left me thinking about is the importance of religion to some families and to groups of people. I think that reading this and hearing about how important religion was to Danny's family, and how much it affected the way that the character evolved throughout the book was astounding.
In your opinion, do you think Danny was able to fully come to terms with his father?
I do think that Reb Saunders and Danny came to a full understanding. I did not expect Reb Saunders's reaction to be that way, but it made for a really nice ending. Reb Saunders said he knew what his son's plans were for a while, and talked to Danny through Reuven. As soon as Reb Saunders said "Reuven," he knew that he was talking to Danny. While it is still hard for them to talk, I think they fully came to terms, and I am happy for Danny.
DeletePersonally, I generally got the impression that Danny had already accepted his father’s treatment of him, if not forgiven him for it, by the time Reuven and Danny met. In fact, Reuven seems to be far more troubled by it than Danny, or is at least more vocal about his opposition to it.
DeleteLike Max, I think that after all of those years of being treated the same way by his father, Danny would have gotten used to it. He certainly had a lot of time to think about why his dad was treated him the way that he did, and he probably accepted that it was for a good reason rather than simply his dad didn't like him. I think that he was able to fully come to terms with his dad because they both respect each other and understand where the other was coming from.
Delete“My classmates had all heard the news...but their words of consolation didn’t help...when I saw him for the first time, helped a little...his face a suffering mask of pain and compassion...His touch and his eyes spoke the words that his lips couldn’t. I told myself it was bitter and ironic that my father needed to have a heart attack in order for some contact to be established once again between myself and Danny.” I think it’s really important to the text that Reuven and Danny first have contact since the conflict between their sides. This comment implies the pain Danny’s silence is causing Reuven, and it also suggests that Reuven believes wordless interactions are meaningless, so the situation would definitely change. From the absence of Danny in Reuven’s life, it’s obvious that exactly what Danny means to Reuven. In Reuven’s Talmudic study, I see how Reuven’s relationship with Danny has initiated Reuven’s maturation whether the worldview or the ways of studying the Talmud.
ReplyDeleteI learn that the complicated and strong relationships between the religions. At the end of the novel, Potok radically alters our perspective on all the characters, and on Reb Saunders in particular.
As Reb Saunders tearfully explains why he raised Danny the way he did, I understand that people are not always how they initially appear. The silence and talks are both powerful and we can’t just ignore or mistake the things that we don’t understand.
What do you think of the character of Rav Gershenson?
"I wished he would at least say or do something, nod his head, smile, even catch me at a mistake--- anything but that awful silence." (249) I think this line was very important to the text because even though Reuven is thinking it, it somewhat portrays the relationship between Danny and his father. At first I thought that this must be how his father is feeling, knowing that he can't talk to his son. However, later in the reading we learn that the silence is a custom of theirs. In this moment I think Reuven finally understands how hard it is for Danny to live in silence with his father, especially now that Reuven is not a buffer between them.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I really liked this book. These readings educated me on the customs of Hasidim, and it was really interesting how the characters developed. Near the end of the book, when Reb Saunders discontinued the ban on their friendship, it made me think of how some people can just ignore their pasts quarrels. Reb Saunders did not speak a word about Zionism, and it was not uncomfortable for Reuven to be there and talk to him. The scene where Reb Saunders was talking to Reuven was amazing, and left me with a lasting image of the respect and compassion for his son.
Now that we know why Reb Saunders uses silence, what are your thoughts on his reasoning for using it?
I think that his reasoning for using silence as a way to teach his child was just as the book said, a way to teach his son compassion. I personally think that it was the wrong way to teach his child how to be compassionate, and kind to others, and I was amazed at how unresentful Danny was of his father, because I would of thought that years of neglect from your father would cause someone to have at least some amount of anger towards said person.
DeleteReb Saunders’s silence reflects how much he cares about Danny. He uses a special and somewhat incredible way to teach his son compassion, cultivating the emotions, and letting Danny find his own soul. I don’t know about parenting, but compared to David Malter, Reb Saunders’ methods are inhuman, but seem successful.
DeleteI think that one of the most important lines, in terms of plot, found within this portion of the reading is the following: “Danny was not to see me, talk to me, listen to me, be found within four feet of me. I had been excommunicated from the Saunders family.” (231). This event, which prevented Reuven and Danny from communicating in any way for what ended up being a span of several years, is important for a few reasons. Firstly and most obviously, it had a profound impact on their relationship, as, well, they couldn’t talk to one another. Another aspect of Reuven’s life that it impacted was his view of Reb Saunders. He already held him in a somewhat negative light, as he disagreed with his decision to never speak with Danny outside of the study of Talmud. However, Reuven’s distaste for Reb Saunders grew into passionate hatred in the wake of this event.
ReplyDeleteOne of the numerous things this book left me thinking about is the idea that it is never wise to make a judgement about someone when you don’t know the full story. I was left thinking about this because of the conversation between Reuven, Danny, and Reb Saunders, in which Reb Saunders explains the reasoning behind his actions throughout the book, and Rueven realizes he heavily misjudged him. There aren’t too many other examples of such a thing happening in this book, but this stuck with me regardless, both because it was essentially the ending to the book, and because I found what Reb Saunderfs said to be very interesting, and enlightening in terms of some of what he did throughout the book.
Do you think Reuven has forgiven Reb Saunders for his actions?
I think Reuven has forgiven Reb Saunders a little bit. I think he understands more of why he did what he did, but he still heavily disagrees with him. I think he might not be angry anymore but is still upset that Danny had to grow up in silence because Reb Saunders didn’t really know what else to do. I really like that you thought of not judging a book by it’s cover and waiting for the full story. It was very interesting when Reb Saunders explained why he raised Danny in silence, especially with the story about his brother. Without that context it is very easy to hate him for what he did and see it as a cruel or heartless act. However, with that story we can see that he was trying to do what was best for his son. I agree that Reuven realizes his misjudgment of Reb Saunders, even if he still disagrees with what happened.
DeleteHi Max, I don’t think I would say Reuven has forgiven him. I think that he is now more aware of why Reb Saunders did what he did but I don’t think he will ever fully forgive him. Reb Saunders took Reuven’s best friend away from him at a time in his life where his father was at risk of dying and Reuven needed his best friend most. Even before Reb Saunders prevented Reuven and Danny from seeing each other, I don’t think Reuven forgave him for his actions in raising Danny. Reuven cares a lot about Danny and even if it’s not how Danny sees it, Reuven believes that Reb Saunders treated Danny very poorly throughout his childhood and that upsets him very much. Overall, I think that no, Reuven has not forgiven Reb Saunders and I think too many things have happened for Reuven to ever fully forgive him.
Delete“I knew your soul, Reuven, before I knew your mind or your face. A thousand times I have thanked the Master of the Universe that he sent you and your father to my son” (267). I think these couple lines are very important to the text. Reb Saunders had been explaining to Reuven, and through him Danny, why he raised Danny in silence. At the end of his speech Reb Saunders explains to Reuven the impact he had on Danny’s life. He tells how important that friendship was to Danny, even in the beginning. If Danny hadn’t met Reuven I think he would have become a very different person. He probably would have become power hungry and wouldn’t have had any respect for other people. I think he would have fallen onto a dark path but because of Reuven's friendship, and his father's guidance, Danny was able to talk to someone and have them listen. I think this is also what Reb Saunders is saying with these two lines.
ReplyDeleteThis book has left me thinking about how important friendships are despite differences that otherwise would separate people. I think sometimes we need a friend who is the opposite of ourselves. It’s easy to get stuck with one mindset and outlook on life when you're surrounded by people who always agree with you. Sometimes we need someone to disagree with us. We need friends who give us a second opinion and help open our eyes to aspects of life we wouldn’t normally consider.
Do you think Danny will have children and raise them in silence like his father did with him?
On the last page of the book, David Malter actually does ask this to Danny; to which he responds with "Yes, if I can't find another way" (271). I don't think it will be as intense as Reb's, but I think Danny will take after some of the things his father did with him. I even wonder if Reuven and Danny will continue to be friends. Personally, I think that even though they will not see each other as often they will continue to be friends. Throughout the book, Reuven and Danny have had such a tight bond that it would be disheartening for them to stop being friends.
Delete“You will go one way, Reuven. And my son, my Daniel, he will--he will go another way”(282). From early on in the book, we’ve known that Reuven wants to be a rabbi and Danny wants to be a psychologist. We also have known that Danny’s father, Reb Saunders, is very serious about how Danny is to take his place. So much so that he and Danny have a rather broken relationship. Because of this, the fear of how his father would react to Danny’s refusing to take his place has been a tremendous stressor to Danny. At the end of the book, after years of Danny studying in secret as to not upset his father, Danny’s father finally confronts Danny and Reuven about the path Danny has chosen. As shown in the above quote, Reb Saunders reveals that he is aware of Danny’s decision to be a psychologist and he goes on to say that, although he wishes things were different, he accepts his son’s decision. This quote is important because it displays the moment where Danny finally becomes free of the pressure to do something with his life other than what he wishes to, and in the absence of this pressure arises the potential for Danny’s relationship with his father to finally improve after many years of silence.
ReplyDeleteThis book has left me thinking about how important it is to give second chances. When Danny hit Reuven in the eye with a baseball, Reuven initially had nothing but hatred for Danny and thought that he was a total jerk. It wasn’t until Reuven’s father convinced him to in the hospital that Reuven even remotely considered having a conversation with Danny. I think I can confidently say that Reuven definitely did not think he and Danny would become best friends over the course of a few years, but that is what happened. All because he realized that Danny might not have meant to harm him that day with the baseball and he gave him a second chance.
Do you think that Danny will give his relationship with his father a second chance?
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DeleteIn your second paragraph you talked about how the book made you realize how important second chances are. I think this is definitely a big thing in the book and a good thing to take away. Reuven's father was especially big on second chances and letting the person say what they are trying to even if you're mad at them. He encouraged Reuven to give both Danny and his father a second chance. My answer to your question is, yes id o think he gave the relationship a second chance. His father let him do what he wanted to and I think Danny is grateful for that. It also said near the end that Danny and his father had started talking which is a big step.
DeleteYes, I do think he will definitely give his father a second chance. I think Danny's father's soul is also revealed to us in Chapter 18. He is not really the mean man we thought he was at the beginning of the novel. Now that Danny knows that his father accepts him in spite of the fact that Danny plans to follow his own path and not the path his father has always wanted him to, Danny will feel a tremendous sense of relief. Reb Saunders is really a man who also has his own highly developed soul. I believe both Reuven and Danny have had a lot of soul development throughout the course of the novel, although I find it sad they both go their own separate ways at the end of the book.
Delete“Silence was ugly, it was black… it was death. I hated it, and I hated Reb Saunders for forcing it upon me and his son.” (221). I think this is important to the text because this is in the midst of Danny’s father not allowing him to speak to Reuven again. Reuven was having a hard time with his studies because he had lost his best friend. I think that goes to show how close they were and how much Reuven had lost when he couldn’t see Danny. I also think it was a dark time for Reuven because he was failing a lot of his classes and, to make things worse, his father had suffered another heart attack. Reuven had no one to talk to during those 2 years and I think that really took a toll on him.
ReplyDeleteThis book left me feeling confused, but also I'm left with a sense of relief. Danny had wanted to be a psychologist from the first day he had met Reuven, and to see his dream finally come true left me feeling relieved for him. I think this book taught me how truly important it is to have friendship. I think Danny and Reuven both helped each other within this story, and to see their character development grow made for a very interesting story. Although I was also left with some confusion because I do not fully understand their religion and history, I think it was still intriguing to learn some about Reuven’s culture.
Although it was mentioned a little, what do you think was going through Danny’s mind during that period of silence?
Hi Liv! I absolutely agree with you when you say that it really took a toll on Reuven to lose Danny. I think that their friendship was an important part of their lives and I think that their friendship may have saved Danny. This friendship was so beneficial to the two of them, and losing each other over something Reuven’s father said, seemed like it was unnecessary. And as you said, it only made matters worse that Reuven’s dad suffered another heart attack during this time. To answer your question, I think Danny was really struggling during his childhood. I think that after meeting Reuven, his desire to be raised in a “normal” way increased dramatically. I get the impression that Danny really didn’t have any other friends besides Reuven, so having to see Reuven raised the he wanted so desperately to be raised must have been really hard for him. He didn’t understand until the very end of the book why he was being raised the way he was, so I think that he also lived his childhood in a confusion, and what could be thought of as being kept in the dark.
DeleteAs mentioned in the book, Danny’s father used to talk to Danny a lot. When Danny got older, his father started to distance himself from him, “‘When he was older… I drew myself away from him.’”(286). I think that if a child experiences this, it will greatly affect how they grow up. If someone that I trusted and I knew as someone that I could go to for something, that I knew as a parent, suddenly turned their shoulder to me and ignored me, at such a young age, I would probably feel betrayed and alone. I think that if the person that I had grown to trust suddenly left me, I would probably not consider them as a parent anymore. And I think that Danny might have felt the same, betrayed and alone, like the one person who they thought they could always trust had abandoned him.
Delete"Danny was not to see me, talk to me, listen to me, be found within four feet of me"(217).
ReplyDeleteThis line is important to the text because it is when Danny told Reuven that they were not allowed to be friends or even talk. This was because Danny's father didn't agree with the speech that Reuven's father made so he didn't want them to be seen together or for Reuven to influence Danny anymore. Their friendship and growing together is a main theme of the book so them not being able to see each other, for what turned out to be two years, defiantly changed things a lot. they both changed as people and the angle of the book also changed because of this important event.
This book taught me about the Jewish religion and how there are many different versions of it. I never realized just how important religion and their traditions are for some people. It changes their whole lives in such big ways. I also never realized how in just one religion there could be such big differences and how they don't always agree. I'm glad that the book has taught me about it so now I am more educated. Another thing that struck me was how hard it was for Danny and Reuven to keep their friendship with all the things stacked against them. They worked through all those challenges like being so busy, their family members health, and their fathers's difference of opinions.
Now that Danny is not taking his father's place do you think his brother will be well enough to do it and how do you think he will be at it?
it seems that in the state his younger brother was in towards the end of the book that there is the possibility that he will die young. But if he does end up becoming the next rabbi I don't think he will be as good as Danny could have been. Reb put all of his energy into making Danny a rabbi and not so much his younger brother. he could be very good at being a rabbi but would never be as good as Danny could have been.
Delete-Abby Dixon
“‘Three years ago, you were still a child. You have become a small giant since the day Danny’s ball struck your eye,”’ (pg 217). I think that this quote is important to the text because it shows how both Danny and Reuven have grown up since the start of the book. In the beginning, Danny and Reuven hated each other, but they have both grown in age and in their mind, and now they love each other. I think that because Reuven got hit in the eye, he learned to see the world in a different perspective. Without that event in his life, he never would have built a relationship with Danny, never learned about raising a child in silence, and he never would have learned how important religion could be to some people. I think this line shows just how much a person can grow in three years, and after reading the book, it makes you look back and acknowledge not only how much Danny and Reuven grew,but also Reb Saunders.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that this book has left me thinking about is how important religion can be to people. Danny’s family was very religious, and so much happened to Danny because of that. He had to break the rules and go behind his father’s back in order to be somewhat happy. He also had to lose his best and only friend, Reuven because of his father’s religious and political views. The book also made me realize that parents can really dominate a child’s life. Danny was held back from so many things growing up, and he had a pretty poor childhood, all because of his father’s beliefs. He was raised in silence, he was only allowed to study certain things, be friends with people his father approved of and his career/future was chosen for him. That obviously changed as in the end of the book his father lets him go study at Columbia, but that’s how it was for most of the book.
My question is do you think that Danny and Reuven will keep in touch with each other for the rest of their lives/the foreseeable future?
“’Reuven, I want you to listen carefully to what I will tell you now.’ He had said: Reuven. His eyes had said: Danny. 'You will not understand it. You may never understand it…A man is born into this world with only a tiny speck of goodness in him. The spark is God, it is the soul; the rest is ugliness and evil, a shell. The spark must be guarded like a treasure, it must be nurtured, it must be fanned into flame (282).’”
ReplyDelete“(My father) taught me with silence. He taught me to look into myself, to find my own strength, to walk around inside myself in company with my soul…One learns of the pain of others by suffering one’s own pain, he would say, by turning inside oneself, by finding one’s own soul. . . It makes us aware of how frail and tiny we are and of how much we must depend upon the Master of the Universe (284).”
These passages are part of Reb Saunders’ talk with Reuven. In reality, he is speaking to Danny through Reuven. He explains why he has chosen to treat his son with silence. It is not cruelty as Reuven has thought. It is so his son will find his own soul. He recognized that his son was “brilliant” and knew he would have a real challenge raising him. He wanted Danny to learn to think for himself. He wanted Danny to be empathetic to others. If Danny was going through the hardship of not having his own father speak to him, he would suffer and, by suffering, he would learn humility and empathy. He would spend a long time thinking about why his father was refusing to speak to him. In this way, he would learn introspection. Reb Saunders was doing his best to ensure that Danny’s soul was nurtured and “fanned into flame.” I think this experience in Danny’s life is similar to Reuven’s experience in the hospital. After his eye is injured, when he is afraid of losing his sight, he suddenly sees the world with much more clarity. He also sees Mickey and Billy suffer and learns empathy for others. So, in this way, both Reuven and Danny, experience a growth of the soul.
This book has left me thinking about whether or not silence would be a good way to treat someone in order for their soul to experience growth. During most of the book, I disagreed strongly with the decision Reb Saunders made. Now, after reading his reasons for his decision, I am trying to look at it with a more open mind. I still don’t feel that I can understand how someone could do this to his own son. I wonder is this something that Hasidic Jews do today, or if it is something that Chaim Potok used to help the reader understand how the growth of the soul is of ultimate importance in the Jewish religion?
“‘Daniel,” he said brokenly. “Forgive me … for everything … I have done. A一a wiser father … may have done differently. I am not … wise,’” (288). This is important to the text because it shows that Reb didn’t necessarily want to raise Danny the way that he did, but rather it was something that he felt he had to do. He raised Danny the way that his father raised him because it’s important to feel the suffering and pain that the people before them felt. I doubt that Reb liked doing this to Danny because it is a somewhat cruel way of bringing up a child. He wishes that he and Danny’s relationship would be different and he didn’t “have” to not talk to his child. Reuven was Reb’s way of talking to Danny, which is partially why Reuven and Danny’s relationship was so important to the book. Without their friendship, Reb would have been even more disconnected from Danny than he would have been otherwise. Throughout The Chosen, I have thought about how important it is to keep your mind open about things. Being open to different ideas, opinions and perspectives can be an opportunity to meet new people, try new things and grow your own imagination and how you view the world around you.
ReplyDeleteWhat relationship will Reuven and Danny have after The Chosen ended?
A line from this section of the book that I found important to the text was when Reb Sauders explains to Reuven why he raised Danny in silence, “‘words are cruel, words play tricks, they distort what is in the heart, they conceal the heart, the heart speaks through silence.’”(284). Reb Sauders father raised him in silence and because he was raised that way. He didn't want Danny to be“a brilliant son who has no soul” so he taught him through silence in order to help him learn the way he was taught. I think that this line was really important because it shows more how the way that a child is raised really helps to shape them into who they become. Both Danny and Reuven were raised in two different ways, and that affected how they grew up and who they became.
ReplyDeleteThe book has left me thinking about the impact that a parent has on a child. A child is shaped by how they were raised, it makes up the base of what they will become. Near the end of the book, Reuven’s father asks Danny if he would raise his son in silence and he responds with, “‘Yes,’ he says, ‘if I can’t find another way.’”(290). I think that this line shows how a parents guide shapes how a child will treat their own children, whether that be in a good way or a bad way. My question is, if Danny had grown up with a father like Reuven's father and Reuven had grown up with a father like Danny’s father, how would that affect how they both grew up?
“‘I don't understand it, Abba.” I was almost in tears. “In a million years I’ll never understand it. He let Danny read all the books I gave him, he let us be friends all these years even though he knew I was your son. Now he breaks us up over this. I just don't understand it,”’ (232.) This feels very important to the text because it is very surprising that Reb let them be friends for so long and his father ended up being the boiling point. To destroy a friendship that has lasted for years over Reb’s followers telling him about Reuven’s father and their differing views seems so bad. It is quite interesting to see how Reb’s mind works because he ended their friendship because of his followers not caring about anything his son felt. It is just important to realize truly how much impact a leader's followers can be even to your own son’s friends.
ReplyDeleteThe book’s ending made me think about how at the start of the book Reuven’s careers would have most likely been a teacher of something of that sort and Danny’s career would be a rabbi. At the end they both seemed to switch and now Reuven’s is to be a rabbi and Danny is going to become a psychologist. It is so weird to think that they both were able to do what they truly wanted to in the end even if the road to it was long and hard.
What do you think will happen Danny, will he be happy with his new choice?
-Abby Dixon